How to Score Better Ads Using Creative AI with Ben Jones

How to Score Better Ads Using Creative AI with Ben Jones

Announcer: [: 00:00:00

Kyle Shannon: There we grow. What's Ann Murphy? You don't look the same at all.

Kelly Anderson: Yeah, everything has

Kyle Shannon: that. So work. Uh, welcome to the AI Readiness Project Podcast. We have a special co-host today, Kelly Anderson. Chef Kelly, great to see you. Good to

Kelly Anderson: see you too. I apologize if my camera, uh, freezes up. I'm trying to be as, uh, easy stream as possible.

We'll see.

our internet provider, your, [: 00:01:00

provider.

Kelly Anderson: What for, yeah.

Kyle Shannon: Um, welcome. I wanna, I wanna jump in and, and sort of hear where you are. You're doing all sorts of cool stuff with ai, but why don't you, since, since you're a guest host here and people don't know you, you, you're not a household name yet.

We're working on that. Not yet. Why don't you tell the good people who you are and what's, what you got going on?

Kelly Anderson: What I got going on? So, uh, hello everybody. My name is Chef Kelly. I am sort of an ex big food chef. Um, I've worked for, uh, some of the world's largest food brands, including, uh, Nestle and Disney, uh, Disney Studios.

eft my cushy job at Nestle in: 2024

I had a couple weeks of

Kyle Shannon: you got. You got your m MIT certificate. It's so good.

icial dive free by the end of: 2027

Hmm.

And I was just very curious about what that would look like and, you know, what kind of natural diet are on the market and, you know, what crops support that and how they're processed. And I just started researching and aggregating data on it. And I, I think I was in Claude one night and Claude was like, you should really turn this into a database and try to sell it to the food industry.

And so,

wow.

lot of. You know, parts per [: 00:03:00

I have a, an algorithm that I, um, that I have a provisional patent out on. And so now it's called Dye converter and it has, it catalogs every SKU in the United States that is certified by the FDA for sale natural. And it can help, um, you know, convert those old synthetic dyes like your red forties and blue ones, and show you exactly what's on the market and what those different scientific conversions will be and your, your cost per and blah, blah, blah.

It's supposed to really just help RD teams get there faster. Um, usually, but that's

what, that's what

you did right?

That's,

those small and medium sized [: 00:04:00

I know it's kind of boring, but like I care about it.

Kyle Shannon: Well, but that's a, that's the thing. I mean, listen, I think that the, the challenge with, you know, saying I'm gonna do ai, you know, today is like AI is so pervasive and it's gonna affect so many things. That's like saying I'm gonna do the internet, right?

It's like the internet is just everywhere. You don't do the internet, you do what you do and you happen to do it on the internet. I feel like AI's gonna be the same way. I agree. Um, so how long ago was it when you, when you left Nestle or when you, when you decided to take the jump and do your m mit

th,: 2024

And then I joined the MIT cohort, um, in the summer of. 2024. I graduated in 2020 early summer, 20, I mean early, early spring 2025. And then I didn't start the die converter thing till about August of last year. So I've just been slowly working on [00:05:00]

Kyle Shannon: it. Okay. And what, what made you jump ship? Were you just done with your big corporate career or was it, was, was AI calling you?

Like what was it that made you go, I, I'm step, I'm stepping out and I'm gonna go learn something I, I, I ain't never done before. Like, it's pretty cool.

Kelly Anderson: Yeah. Well, you know, Nestle's a big company and I was really, I was really curious about it and I knew that AI was, oh, I knew that Nestle was working on some sort of AI thing and, and it's released now, so it's No, no big deal.

But like, you know, I was like, you know, put me in coaching. They were like, no, we're not gonna put a coach in our, in our AI development division. And, um, so I took, I, I just took a risk on myself and, and I was like, there's just no other time. And I felt like. You know, it's like, I hate it sounds so cheesy, but like, I saw the possibility.

know, and don't let anybody [: 00:06:00

but I really, I, you know, I tell people it's like, if you could go back in time and put like a thousand dollars on this little company called Macintosh, you know, it's kind of like that. I felt like this was my moment to really get in there and see what this was all about. Yeah.

Kyle Shannon: And what's so, catch me up between, between, um.

So you get your certificate at MITI assume there you're learning about machine learning and models and weights. I assume it was very technical, just I'm assuming it

Kelly Anderson: was very technical. It wasn't, I wasn't learning prompts. We weren't learning how to, you know, generate videos and images. It was under the hood and it was, yeah,

Kyle Shannon: you,

Kelly Anderson: you're

Kyle Shannon: learning data science, right?

hms, but I had to learn what [: 00:07:00

But, and I really, when it came out and everyone is getting, you know, you know, like Joy pur and her beautiful videos and I'm like, all I know it's is like the carburetor, like under the hood, right?

Right. Yeah.

Full circle. That's like, as all those toys come in and out and go so fast. Having that foundational knowledge has been very, just really wonderful for me to know.

It just, it, it grounds me a little bit. Like I understand how, how

Kyle Shannon: models

Kelly Anderson: work, you know?

Kyle Shannon: Yeah. You understand what's happening there. Yeah. And what was, what, what was that transition like? So between, like I know once you started Vibe coding and you made the tool that you've got, but like, did you start playing with Midjourney and with video stuff?

Did you, did you, like how many rabbit holes did you run down? Like what was that process like?

Kelly Anderson: Uh, I've run [: 00:08:00

And I remember. Somebody once showed me mid journey very early on, and I was like, that's like for Dungeons and Dragons. It's like all forests. And like everyone was doing all fairies because it was, it was very, you know,

Kyle Shannon: it was very d&d early on.

Kelly Anderson: It was right. Yeah. And then I was like, I really dug like Haing and 11 labs.

I was a very early adopter of 11 labs. 'cause I, I understood how, um, how great voiceovers could be, you know? Mm-hmm. And, um, I really wanted, I remember when I created that little animated version of myself, um, I dug that, but that was just a blip, you know, but I did, I went down the rabbit holes of should I, should I have a, an avatar clone of myself?

ry to do. YouTube videos and [: 00:09:00

Kyle Shannon: mm-hmm.

Kelly Anderson: I kind of stick with the, with the basics, the meat and potatoes kind of stuff.

Kyle Shannon: Well, yeah, it sounds like you're sticking with the stuff that you know, but I, I mean, I think you, you and I were talking before the show. I think there's a really interesting path that you're exploring, which is, now that you're out on your own, what is your brand? Do you represent your brand with an avatar?

Do you put yourself front and center? Right? Yeah. Do you, is it about the tool? Is it about you? I mean, I think that's fascinating. We've got, you know, Ben's coming up and he's, you know, he and I have worked together ages ago, but he's been doing a lot of this, you know, stuff in the advertising space for years and years and years.

t are you exploring? What's, [: 00:10:00

Kelly Anderson: Well, I have to say, I couldn't be more pleased that Ben is our guest today, because, I mean, it's, it's a little, little bit of kismet that I'm, I'm just in that spot where I really need to find tune, you know, my, my message behind Die Converter, because I'm, I'm, so, I've kinda got a lot of plates spinning in the air.

You know, I have future of Food, which is my advisory firm, you know, so I can consult brands on all kinds of things, right? But, but I really wanna focus on, you know, AI readiness and, you know, making sure the integrations are good, the human in the loop theory, all that stuff, right? And so I can be me in that.

I can talk about, I love clean label, you know, I can help you get your, your CPGs, your portfolio sort of reformed and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then I am suddenly over here. I'm a female tech founder.

Yeah.

who, how, how do I pitch to [: 00:11:00

Do I, do I hide behind the brand and let the brand stand for itself, or do I come out and be the face of the brand? It's, it's a very, it's deep. B2B, I mean, it's deep b2b.

Kyle Shannon: You're talking like Yeah. People deep in corporations, right? Yeah. That's like, that's who you're selling to.

Kelly Anderson: Yeah. And so it's like my ICP is the frustrated r and d person, if they even have one, you know, the frustrated, maybe chef that's on staff or the CEO that, that does all their, you know, formulas and recipes and tweaking.

he C-suite. That goes, well, [: 00:12:00

And I'm like, I just dunno how to talk to that, that customer.

Kyle Shannon: Yeah, that's fascinating. That's fascinating. Yeah, and it, I, I suppose if you do the branding right, like that'll do some of the talking for you, but it's not, I guess it depends on where you, where you, where's the heavy lift. Right. Do you do the heavy lift in the C-suite or do you do the heavy lift on the, on the branding side?

The marketing side?

Kelly Anderson: To me that's what

Kyle Shannon: bit about you made, that you made that character. If, if no one's seen it, um, I don't know if people can still find it, but you made a version of yourself that's like a, like a sort of Pixar 3D character that talks about natural colorings and things like that, as I recall.

Yeah. I thought it, I, I personally thought it was incredibly well done. Like it was well written, it was well executed. Um, I'm just curious, what have you done with that? Have you gotten any response to that? Do you want to carry that further?

at the very beginning when I [: 00:13:00

And, and it was unbelievable to me how, 'cause I used to be a journalist like way back in the day before I became a chef. And, and the stuff that used to take me days or weeks to research and sort through and, you know, remember Yahoo and you do page after page after page, you'd think you'd click on the link and oh no, you have to go back.

And AI changed the way that you could just research super quickly, um, if you did it right.

Yeah.

And I just found that, you know. I was uncovering a lot of just stuff about my industry that I wasn't super duper happy about. And I had sort of been shielded because I'd worked in plant-based or vegan or organic divisions of these companies.

idn't really wanna say it as [: 00:14:00

And so I think that identity crisis happened for a while, but when I did decide to move forward with dye converter, I said, this is the perfect opportunity to use this character to tell people. Why I'm so gung-ho about clean color. Yeah. And this two minute video, um, outlines, you know, how it's a petrochemical, it's made in the same, you know, silos as gasoline and it's, it's a biohazard and it creates this toxic waste in our environment.

ce, but I haven't, I haven't [: 00:15:00

You know, it's, it's, she's definitely more of a B2C kind of character, I think. Yeah. I'm not so sure she would fly with the B2B. Yeah.

Kyle Shannon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. And how did you, how did you create it? Like what was the, what was the learning curve to go from? I, I

Kelly Anderson: need

Kyle Shannon: two.

m a, I must have gone through: 3000

Yeah. It was like, no, do not, you know, so IRT myself and like, like great detail. And then, um, I think, you know, through Mid Journey and chat GBT finally, but then who was the other one that I was using a lot? I can't remember before Ideogram. Um, but I just went over and over until finally I had found one that I really liked and I was like, bingo.

me, hey, Jen would allow you [: 00:16:00

Kyle Shannon: yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it

Kelly Anderson: was easy after that. It was little 11 labs and, Hey Jen, 32nd increments.

And then I spliced in some real footage and voila.

Kyle Shannon: Yeah, it was quite, it was quite good. It was quite good. Um, no, that's,

Kelly Anderson: we'll put it in the description for anybody who wants to watch it later.

Kyle Shannon: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Where, where can people find it? Is it on YouTube?

Kelly Anderson: I think it's on YouTube somewhere, but I'll, I'll drop it in here.

Kyle Shannon: The end. Okay. Drop, drop in the comments.

Kelly Anderson: Yeah,

at's going on with you today?[: 00:17:00

Mentally with ai,

Kelly Anderson: I think, um, yeah, so I, I've noticed on LinkedIn, I, I created right around the beginning of the year a, um, a newsletter called AI Food Lab. Mm-hmm. And that has been pretty popular. Um, I've gotten a lot of, not a lot, but I mean, good amount of subscriptions in a short amount of time and good readership as well.

So I definitely see that there is a, uh, a need for somebody who's got the industry experience to explain what AI is doing in the food industry, its implementation and why it's there. And the pitfalls, the successes. Right. And I am, I've had this MVP with D converter done for about three months. I've made some very minor changes.

mes and taking meetings. And [: 00:18:00

I've never had anybody go, ah, that's a stupid idea. You know, because it's a deadline and a captive audience that's like an investor's dream. But, um, it's, I've gotta get, I need an injection of cash, so I need some funding in order for it to fly. And I need an engineer. I need a developer who can take it from here because I am too slow at what needs to be done next.

Right. And, and getting the bugs out and making sure that the server is, is secure and, and can continue to clean the data and aggregate it and so on. And so, yeah. So yeah, I have been going to a lot of trade shows and taking a lot of meetings. I'll be in San Francisco next week for the future food tech of, um.

I've submitted to a couple like pitch fests or Slam pitch slams, whatever they're called. And so I'll have a few of those soon. Um, I'm running with the Gen Zers.

Kyle Shannon: Yeah. [: 00:19:00

Kelly Anderson: Everybody?

Kyle Shannon: That's wild.

Well, listen, I like kudos to you because I think. Uh, kudos to you for choosing it because I think one of the, like, one of the things that that has been striking me is that if you choose to be an entrepreneur, you know, it's, we'll talk to Ben about this. He wasn't an entrepreneur for a while and now he is, he was telling me before it's like, it's a lot, um, choosing to be an entrepreneur is, you know, you kind of have to be a bit of a sociopath, so congratulations, love it.

Joining, joining the club. Um, and, but there's gonna be a lot of people that are gonna be forced into entrepreneurship, right? There's gonna be a lot of job disruption and it's gonna a lot be a lot of people where the job gets disrupted and there's not an industry for them to go back into, right? In your case, there is one, but some, some of these jobs are just gonna, the whole, the entire sector's gonna be wiped, right?

Or, you know, [: 00:20:00

Well, this is good. We'll, we'll, let's, let's get Ben up here. Let me, uh. Let me talk, talk a little bit about, uh, some, some other things here. So if you, uh, if you don't know, um, Anne Murphy, who's not here today, oh, by the way, Anne is out. She's out giving speeches. She's, I don't know, she's traveling the country right now.

rything, chef Kelly, I think [: 00:21:00

Um, yep. Is through, she leads ai, so, so go check out. She leads ai.ai. They've got a bunch of new programs that are launching, I think this month or next, like big meaty. Yes. You know. Get certifications, you know, get yourself out there as a professional. Um, so she leads AI is, is, is really, really good. Really very college.

Kelly Anderson: Can I just say something?

Kyle Shannon: Yeah, please. It's the

Kelly Anderson: best female AI community out there. It's so supportive. It's some of the best women I've ever met. If you were curious, you don't know where to start. If you're nervous, if everybody thinks you're crazy because you wanna give it a shot, this is a community for you.

I just want you,

Kyle Shannon: that's the the crazy thing. Yeah. Kelly, could you not talk about AI at dinner tonight? You know? Exactly.

s, is the AI salon. And, and [: 00:22:00

I mean, you've done that already, shared what you learned, you know, vibe coding and things like that. Um,

Kelly Anderson: but your Saturday LOLs and, and Brandon's live hacks and your Friday office hours, and I could go on and on and on. It is nonstop high class quality education for

Kyle Shannon: Yeah, it really, it really is. And it's, you know, it's quality education from people that, you know, for the most part are not being paid to do that.

vel up your game and start a [: 00:23:00

It's wild. It's really good. Um, so anyway, so I'm really excited. Um, our guest today is, is one Ben Jones. I know Ben for many, many years. He's probably got stories to tell. Uh, but Ben is with Sun Dogs and, uh, let's get Ben up here. Ben Jones.

Ben Jones: Hello, friends. Hello.

Kyle Shannon: How are you? Good to see you, sir. Um, why don't you, why don't you tell the, the fine people who you are and what you're doing in this world and where you've come from?

me. 'cause there's too much. [: 00:24:00

Ben Jones: The podcast is four hours long, is that right?

Kyle Shannon: Four hours. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We're, we're all old enough Now that we've got, we've got too many stories to tell.

Ben Jones: Uh, I'm Ben Jones, I'm the founder and CEO of Sun Dogs. Uh, sun Dogs is a platform that ingests and diagnoses video at scale.

So what's happening inside? How creative stories are told, how brands are represented, how people interact. Um, we do ads, we do creator content and we're exploring answer engine optimization, which is shifting from text into video. Um, and I got here 'cause I was Google's global creative director for a decade doing all their creative effectiveness research.

So we had a wonderful seat to sit on, which was a billion and a half hours a day of watch time. Millions of advertiser campaigns. And the opportunity to experiment with these brands on not just what showed up in work, but then what happened when you changed ads and put them in market. How to movie trailers change how to.

Nestle. Um, and so it was a [: 00:25:00

He had tested radio ads, and the goal was multisensory input. Uh, and so if you had a radio ad that, that had only appealed to one sense, you had one reaction, he had multiple senses in the words of a radio ad. Uh, you, you got a stronger reaction. But the way he figured it out was he would put cotton balls in people's mouths, have them listen to radio ads, and then if you salivate it at a higher rate, hot halls, wave them.

He figured out that there was this sensory. This sensory Yes. Input increase. Uh, so we, I was fascinated by this of course. So I was like, well, let's do it. Let's, let's find out if you can do the same thing at scale in the wild on YouTube. Um, so we invented a brand called Dr. Fork, uh, and we did a whole series of experiments on multisensory input and.

Doggone it. [: 00:26:00

Kelly Anderson: Yeah.

Ben Jones: Of experiment and, and, and, and, uh, and research and education side of Google.

Uh, and then two years ago, I spun out with Google's blessing to do the same thing that we've done at YouTube across all forms of video. TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, CTV, creator content. Um, if it's important to clients, it's, it's important to us. And we still do a ton of work with Google, um, and Google clients.

They're great, uh, great participants, but we're a, we're a, you know, a little tiny potato now trying to figure it out outside the walls.

Kyle Shannon: Yeah. How are you, um, talk about. You know. Well, so a couple of things. Um, you jumped from, uh, whatever a decade in go Google, right? You, you, you, you've, you've had a day job for a while and you jumped out on your own.

You thought, I, I can do [: 00:27:00

Ben Jones: Well, so, so we had this business inside of Google where we were working with these major brands and doing this research. And as Google pivoted to ai, they basically said, you know, Hey, we want you to focus on research, do AI feed the machine. Um, and I thought my clients need more help than this, and we're just scratching the surface of this video problem.

I, I never imagined all the time I was at Google, I could never imagine leaving. I was like, there are worlds inside of worlds, inside of worlds here. Uh, I'll stay here forever. It'll be amazing. People are amazing. It is incredible, incredible place. But at that juncture, I, I thought there's as much to learn outside as there is inside.

for me. I love this pro. I'm [: 00:28:00

Uh, I still am fascinated by what patterns come out and what it shows about people, how they react emotionally and rationally and, and, uh, so it's a storytelling problem for me. Um, but. Uh, you know, bootstrap startups, not for the faint heart. Uh, I will say it has been, I have a great partner, amazing partner, amazing team.

Um, but trying to figure out that, that all of the things I don't know, and the raw pieces of like, where are we gonna make payroll this month? We made payroll this month. Okay, great. Uh, raising money. Chef Kelly. Same as you. Yeah. How do we go through, how do we go through fundraising? My partner was a successful, uh, entrepreneur, had raised before, had an exit, and so, you know, he had a track record for all that kind of stuff, but it's really, really, really, really, really hard.

of stuff that you don't know [: 00:29:00

And it would say, you know, like, here's how to, the best way to spring clean your closets. And I'd be like, I guess spring clean. I should spring clean closets. Like, it was like very fundamental. How do you know to even do a thing? 'cause there was an article real simple about it. So, you know, fast forward a decade or two.

So AI is that for me, it's the like, you know, other half of the brain that I never developed to be a, to be a CEO.

Kyle Shannon: Beautiful, amazing. Um, chef Kelly. So, so talk to, I mean, talk to Ben about like where you are, what you're doing and, and you know, you said, you said, yeah,

completely concur. Like, you [: 00:30:00

Ai, which is enough, it's enough input as it is. And then to learn on top of that, like all the other skills that you need to learn to be an entrepreneur or to talk to investors or you know, and all whatever. For me it's, it's, do I run ads? Do I try to get organic engagement? You know, and, and, and I was telling, uh, Kyle about this earlier.

g the personal brand probably: 2023

Right. Um, so I see that as useful [00:31:00] for a very. Light B2B or B2C. But for somebody like me who's deep, deep, deep in the bd, how do you personal brand and who, I mean, I know you're supposed to talk to your customer, but it's a, it's a dry conversation and you wanna, you wanna inject some of yourself in there, but not too much.

It's a very fine line to walk. So I don't know if maybe you wanna talk about that a little bit.

Ben Jones: I mean, for, for me it's that enthusiasm for the problem. You know, I am uncomfortable putting myself forward. I didn't, I I, I didn't want the company to be about me. I wanted it to be about this idea. Uh, I, I, you know, I'm, I, I've hired a super talented team.

I want them to be stars. I don't wanna be a star. Um, but part of that is putting out what we think and how we look at the world and what's interesting to us. Um, and I think for an introvert like me, like that's uncomfortable. You know, how am I putting myself out there where I don't wanna have, I don't wanna have my face on video all the time.

nna hear the sound of my own [: 00:32:00

Out of the, I love this. I love this trailer. Here's the thing that I love, and I, because I'm excited about it and enthusiastic about it in a specific way that shows, you know, maybe I've watched 10,000 movie trailers. Then I think that, that, that comes out and, you know, you begin to build an expertise and be known for something and, and, uh, and then when you have actual news or, you know, my team publishes a research paper.

We got featured in Forbes recently for work that we've done on creators for L'Oreal. Then, you know, people are like, oh, I see the connection here. You know, you, you're digging into this stuff all the time. You're finding stuff. Then it's, it's out there. So. Uh, but, but trying to figure out the balance of, you know, how do I spend my time?

lients? Am I, you know, am I [: 00:33:00

But when it's you at the desk, you know, what's your next best hour? God knows I got 10,000 hours for the next hour, and it's hard to figure out what's next.

Kyle Shannon: Yeah, that's

Kelly Anderson: so true. Yeah.

Kyle Shannon: Yeah. 40 to dos. Um, how about, you know, I assume, I assume in those millions of videos that you've watched over the years, a lot of that was people.

Successfully establishing their personal brand, unsuccessfully, establishing their personal brand. Like I'm sure you've seen train wrecks, I'm sure you've seen train wrecks that have worked. Can you just share insight about what you've learned on, on that front? Like what works, what doesn't? Like what are the, what are the commonalities?

Sure.

ce as opposed to advertising [: 00:34:00

Like, oh, it's authentic. Well, what does that mean? Does it mean me, you know, down the barrel to the camera? Does it am, am I swearing at like, is it my tonality? Um, and so in analyzing, you know, 12,000 ads globally for L'Oreal, we found some of the pieces of that, which really interesting. One of those is, is cognitive load.

So, uh, how much am I asking you to process versus how much value am I giving you? And if you think about a Verizon ad, right, I've got one shot of a living room of people and a second shot of, of a character, and a third shot of a character. And it's for some reason, Jeff Bridges and Zoe Saldana and her husband, and they're in her living room, and then they're somehow talking about Verizon and just the variety of shots and the variety of decoding you need to do is very high.

It's a high cognitive [: 00:35:00

They're talking directly to camera. So it's a low cognitive load and high information value. They are saying a lot. You're getting a lot out of it, and so it's much more nutritional. Mm-hmm. I'll use a chef, Kelly, I'm gonna use a weird metaphor for you. Uh, much less work, much more value. So that's one. Two, they, they, uh, they use a much greater emotional range than is available in ads.

vailable to them that is not [: 00:36:00

So that's a second sort of dimension of authenticity. Um, and a third is they have a more intimate visual language. So we, again, we were looking at beauty ads and we had a spectrum that we had coded of full body shot, sort of mid-body shot and closeup. And we were analyzing all these ads based on that.

And we found inside of the creator ads, there was another even closer shot that you couldn't really do. You know, it was an extreme closeup, sort of like this, and people are, don't look at my skin, but like that. And the creators who used it had a significantly higher engagement rate, brand impact, et cetera, et cetera.

So they had a, a visual intimacy that you could not get from that. And so those are all things, that's a language, right? And creators speak this language. And if you learn to speak that language, then you have access to, to a different, more intimate kind of relationship with people. Um, then, then brands can then can come out in scripted content.

authenticity actually means. [: 00:37:00

Kelly Anderson: I wanna ask you a follow up question on the L'Oreal thing because, um, that's a subsidiary of of Nestle as well. And, and I think that the Forbes headline, didn't it say. They had to unlearn advertising in order to learn it again.

So can you tell me about what that process looked like?

Ben Jones: Sure. So, so, so many brands have a set of best practices and the best practices are meant to, you know, prevent mistakes and increase the quality of ads overall. But the language that was used from the ads world when applied to creators made boring creator content.

Yeah. Uh, so the more they brought those best practices over from ads and they said, oh, you need to talk about the product in this way. You need to mention the brand this many times. You need to use the scientific language 'cause that's the claims that we have. All of those things dampened the response of creators.

tic, was Rewilding. That is, [: 00:38:00

Kelly Anderson: Right.

Ben Jones: Uh, and so, so as they rewild it, as they unlearn the best practices, it opened up this storytelling, which in a world where we're saturated, FYI, with tons of stories and tons of AI slap is coming, that's all gonna adhere to best practices,

Kelly Anderson: right?

Ben Jones: You have to find that new territory. Uh, and so the, this idea of rewilding we're, we're, we're really excited about 'cause that, that, that floor is coming rocketing upwards.

And what AI is really good at is pattern recognition and repetition. So everyone is gonna be good at that soon. And the only new territory is a thing that is effective but rare. Uh, so finding your way to that is gonna be interesting. Key of the next generation of, of good storytelling.

Kelly Anderson: Yeah.

Can I ask one follow up and wants to go?

if those creator generated, [: 00:39:00

I'm gonna tell you about this new L'Oreal. You guys know that I work for them and they're sponsor, you know, they're, um, I endorse them. How are you guys approaching that? Because my daughter is Gen Z and it's like this, they find out that like their favorite creator who they understand has to sometimes break for a commercial or talk to you about the new product that, that they're being sponsored to promote.

But if they find out that they really don't use that product, that they're just being paid to say they do. Oh, it's on, you know what I mean? Like, forget it. And so I wonder how you guys approach that with a huge company like that to, to have that authenticity.

Ben Jones: Yeah. So we were looking at creators of all sizes, 12,000 videos.

There are, you know, [: 00:40:00

Oh, we're gonna do a product review. Okay. So here's the product, and I'm gonna talk about it and I'm gonna talk about its benefits and features. Whatever we found, again, through scaled analysis format is not a, a driver of impact. Mm-hmm. So, telling creators that they have to do a product review, or they have to do a get ready with me, uh, or they have to do a beauty tutorial, does not more effectively sell the product.

that's gonna get much better [: 00:41:00

So the authenticity of creators around the products that they present. Uh, there, there's a. An interesting finding in that also creators have the ability to talk negatively and positively about products in ways that brands don't. Yes. And that's a positive, that's a contributor of authenticity. So they say, well, I've got this, you know, hand cream.

And it's not great if my hands are super dry, but it's really good if I just wanna like, and that kind of nuanced presentation of product where people are like, I'm getting the straight dope essentially. Uh,

Kyle Shannon: yeah, it's a trust thing. Right? Yeah. Um, can you talk to me, I agree. I think that, that, I've saying this a lot, that, you know, people are talking about AI slap and it's like, you know, the bottom's down here and the bottom's about to come up here.

Just like you said. What do you think are gonna be the things that, so, so the fact that the bottom's higher doesn't mean anything, it just means that's now the bottom, right? Like, what do you think are the keys to being rising above that?

s: I mean, I think the thing [: 00:42:00

If everyone can tell a story in a super great way, who genuinely is interesting, genuinely is fresh, genuinely is new 'cause we're gonna be able to imitate everything else. Okay. Um, there was just, there was just a fantastic essay posted this morning about that, uh, and it was about the difference between taste and style.

Taste is a source of friction and it is not fast and it is not, uh, accepted and anyone can imitate style, but no one can imitate taste. So I think that. That AI is gonna, you know, it used to be a massive differentiator. If you were a brand who had the money to put on a beautiful production and shoot a product in a certain way, other brands couldn't afford it.

So immediately there was a perception of premiumness. Now any brand can do that. So that premiumness needs to come from someplace else, or authenticity or, you know, what's the advantage of being big is the question that, that a lot of my clients are asking. Do,

enticity is the, is the new, [: 00:43:00

Ben Jones: Well, I think what we're seeing is, is is the sort of aesthetics of a coded creator, authenticity are being imitated ferociously quickly.

Kyle Shannon: Right.

Ben Jones: I'm down the barrel, I'm gonna give you the straight dope, et cetera, et cetera. And what's emerging, I think instead of that, is creators who have a genuine connection to their audience.

Kelly Anderson: Mm-hmm.

Ben Jones: And their authenticity, which is a direct connection to the audience. Not a style, not an aesthetic, but a But their genuineness, chef Kelly, to your point about your daughters, you know, they, they trust a voice. They wanna hear that voice. They wanna believe that that voice is telling them a thing that they, you know, then, then can put some emotional value into.

Um, so it's not a style, not an aesthetic. I, I think that, that, that language is changing really, really rapidly. Um, and it's, and it's fun, fun to see where it goes. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

sumer loyalty and, and brand [: 00:44:00

Intimacy like trust and, and loyalty. And so when, when they say like, how can we get consumer loyalty? I'm like, well, how can they get yours? They wanna know that, like you're telling them the truth that, that, you know, they have this actual connection with you. They've been doing this since they can remember those old tricks that worked on us.

ngagement meant, you know, in: 2020

Mm-hmm.

You can have a creator that is wildly popular and he just might rub me the wrong way.

you know, camera work, same [: 00:45:00

Ben Jones: Yeah. I hope, you know, I hope when I'm optimistic that it is gonna bring together this combination of, this is what I say and this is what I do. Like this is my business practice.

And so I'm sustainable and ethical if that matters to the audience that I'm putting stuff out there for. 'cause we can find it out. You know, I remember the, uh, Audi ad a few years ago where it was this beautiful be beautifully shot ad about a girl competing in a go-kart competition. She wins and it was like, you know, hoorah and people posted it directly next to the Audi board of directors who were all middle aged white men.

And they were like, Hey. So,

Speaker: yeah.

Ben Jones: Uh, I, I think it's gonna be interesting to see how we continue to connect those dots, especially this younger generation, connects those dots. These are things that are meaningful. This is where I'm gonna spend my money and my time. And what is interesting to me.

Kyle Shannon: Um, let me, let me ask you something, man.

I want to talk about how old you are 'cause I think that's important.

Kelly Anderson: How [: 00:46:00

Kyle Shannon: Yeah, really old. Really

Kelly Anderson: old.

Ben Jones: Really,

Kyle Shannon: really old. Yeah. You gotta get in close when you say it so they can see the poorest. Um, no. What what I'd like to, I mean, you and I, you and I shared some early days, the early days of the worldwide web.

Like, like we've been through, like you and I were together going through kind of the evolution of that. I would love to just hear from you, just kind of compare and contrast what, what that was like and what you're seeing now with ai. Just what's, what, what is it? What feels the same, what feels different?

Like where do you think we are in the process? I'm just curious to hear. Yeah. You know, your, your POV on historical context.

Ben Jones: It's a great question. It's a great question. I think the things that are the same are the sense that nobody knows. Mm-hmm. And you know, the early days of the web and the magic of the creative directors at, at agency when we were there was this idea that like, we can all see the pieces, everyone can see what the pieces are.

em more quickly or in a more [: 00:47:00

Mm-hmm. Um, I think the biggest, so that's the same. I, I think the biggest difference is in the early days of the internet, there was a sense that there was a, a, an end point that we were all working towards, which was, you know, a, a community and shared knowledge and what happens when, you know, everybody knows everything and everyone can be connected.

There will be some great utopia that comes outta that. It's gonna be awesome. And so this idea that, like I'm online, I'm finding these communities of people I never knew existed, were sharing all this stuff. Uh, that, that, that wave of early internet up into the kind of social era, I think had an optimism to it because we felt like we were building something.

is no one has said clearly, [: 00:48:00

Right? There's a separation happening, and, and presumably there's good and it'll settle out. And we had the same arguments in the industrial revolution. Um, but as I look at, as I look at the dynamics, nobody is saying like, here's why. We're doing all this. Mm-hmm. After all the data centers are built and the models are great, then what, then are we gonna have leisure?

Then? Are we gonna have more humanity? Are we gonna paint more pictures? Well, AI's gonna paint my pictures, you know, what, what, where does it get us to? And, and without that, there's a darkness that I worry about. I'm an incredibly optimistic person, but there's a, there's a consumptive darkness in it that, that doesn't feel the same.

't have that same, you know. [: 00:49:00

I don't know, a hundred or so pens. And I just took pictures and I fed it into Gemini. And I got this incredible, you know, industrial history of each of these pens and the value of them and why they were interesting or important or which ones were rare or how to recover them. And it was just, it opened up this whole dimension of my uncle and all these online communities is fantastic.

Like really, you know, amazing.

Kelly Anderson: Mm-hmm.

and safety, uh, to, you made [: 00:50:00

That could be really hard. I know we're gonna need a, we're gonna need a better safety net than we have and a different kind of social compact. Yeah. And, and I, I don't see that those foundations emerging right now. So I, I, I hope I'm wrong and I hope it's different. I hope it does become more utopian, but it's different from the early days of the web in that way.

Kyle Shannon: You know, it's funny, Ben, as you were talking there, there's a thing that ties this to what you and Kelly were talking about with the, with the personal storytelling and the, the brand building. 'cause I, I've witnessed this a lot within the AI salon, is that the, the outputs, like making reports, doing things, making videos like that, that feels like that, that's getting commoditized really quickly.

pens, those objects, just as [: 00:51:00

And Kelly, you with, you know, your experience, you know, being deep inside Nestle and now you're out and you're like, Hey, I just realized I'm actually passionate about that. There's something for me with AI that we get to tap into the collective intelligence of those that came before us. And, and maybe this authenticity thing, maybe the real value is.

the, the future of the web. [: 00:52:00

Ben Jones: I, I'll tell you, I'll tell you a, a, a thing I saw today, uh, which, which manifested a side of AI that I thought was incredible.

Uh, this was from TBWA, HACA Hodo, which is an agency in Japan, and they made a radio, looked like a old fashioned radio, and you tune it, but you tune it to a year. So 19 20, 19 24. That's so good. And it's for, it's for, uh, old age homes where people are experiencing dementia and have like buried memories and they can't, and it's, they're still present there, but they can't really access them.

cess did this or there was a [: 00:53:00

Kelly Anderson: yeah.

Yeah.

Ben Jones: I thought it was fantastic. Beautiful. Really beautiful.

Kelly Anderson: Yeah.

Yeah. You know, if, like, people who aren't suffering, they're not there yet. They're not in, in some of these assisted living homes. Like for instance, my father, if I were to set him up with chat GPT in a microphone and said, dad, just talk about your life.

Just tell chat g PT your stories.

Yeah.

And let it, let it categorize it for you and blah, blah, blah. Think about then, and plugging that year radio in with everything else. And it could tell him back sort of his, his story if he was suffering from Alzheimer's or dementia. Something like that.

Kyle Shannon: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kelly Anderson: Double line, you know.

Kyle Shannon: Brilliant. That's really good. That's really good. Um, what, what haven't we covered? What, what should we have asked you?

Ben Jones: Um, I, I, I think the interesting question for me is a little bit about how you, one an individual keeps up. Right? Mm-hmm. Like I think as I look at AI right now, I see two things happening for everybody.

One, [: 00:54:00

What, right. I'm doing the same old thing that I used to do. Yep. I can make a beautiful car ad or, or perfume ad. I just don't have to hire a crew and shoot it. So an old thing in a new way. I, I think what's interesting is the unknown unknowns, right? What's not secret, cyborg, faster horse. Like what's the next set of stuff?

And then how do we get there? And the thing I struggle with, I assume you guys struggle with too, you know, new tools come out all the time. And so how do you decide when you go deep and I'm gonna learn these tools and make enough things with them, then there's a new iteration or there's a new model and I gotta reset.

stuff, and then I get hailed [: 00:55:00

How do I make a thing? What can I make? And, uh, you know, I, so figuring out when you go in deep, you stabilize your skillset, you're able to make a thing. And then when you have to disengage and say like, okay, the models have evolved far enough, I gotta do something else. I don't know. How do you guys keep up?

Kyle Shannon: I, I, I've, I've actually stopped at this point. I, I thought this was a beautiful, uh, beautiful comment about you being a secret sideboard.

It's,

Ben Jones: it's kind of a, it's kind of a Narnia thing. It's

Kyle Shannon: kind narnia

Ben Jones: always secret.

Kyle Shannon: Exactly. The, the, what's what's happening in the AI salon is, I, I mentioned before this, this thing of the, the, um, AI Salon Mastermind practice. So we created a, a framework for people to create a daily practice around how they do ai.

h kind of high anxiety about [: 00:56:00

What's happening is to a person, everyone's slowing down and like Kevin Clark discovered pens and paper again. So every morning now he writes for an hour. Cindy Kon cleaned out her art studio, which had been sitting for years unused, and she organized it. Now she's doing watercolors and paintings and illustration and spending time in nature.

So. I like, one of the clear trends in the AI salon is people have given up on trying to keep up and they're just getting much more intentional about who they are and, and what they want to do in the world. And then through that filter they can say, okay, what AI things are out there that can support that.

the only sane way to do it. [: 00:57:00

And then what would you say to someone just getting started with all this stuff

Kelly Anderson: and do you like Skittles?

Kyle Shannon: Do

Ben Jones: I like Skittles? Do I like Skittles? Taste the rainbow. How can you not like Skittles? Skittles? Skittles has run the Skittle PX ad for a decade, and every time they bring in new ad, they run it against Skittles pox and Skittles p sells Skittles every time.

So it doesn't need to be a new thing. Just needs to be a good thing. Skittles. Skittles. That's right. That's right. That's right, that's right. What does AI readiness, uh, mean to me? Uh, it means, it, it, it means a combination of curiosity and application. So are, am I, am I continuing to engage and, and am I keeping my skills, uh, ready to engage?

Whatever that is. [: 00:58:00

We had a client ask for a project from US, consulting Project from us, um, and it wasn't really core to what we do, and I thought this is gonna be an opportunity for me to, you know, refresh my skills. And so I said, I'll do this for free, uh, and I'm gonna, you know, do a notebook, LM project. I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure out how to refilter all the research that I need and plug it in and, you know, it should be a few hours, probably gonna be more as I learn how to do it, but good for the client, good for me, not core to my business.

Refresh the skillset. So make stuff.

Kyle Shannon: I love it. I love it. That's great. Um. Final words. Chef Kelly, what do you think? Final words for Ben?

nal words for Ben? Um, what, [: 00:59:00

And, and, and I think that we've turned that corner in advertising and I, as far as I can see in the CPG world, at least, we are entering an age of consumer is king. And I think that the sooner some of these legacy brands, you kind of got away with the Shell game for so many years, um, recognize that I think that it, it'll be an easier, you know, game for them.

So, but thank you. I mean, you, you have been amazing and, and your, your insight is gold, so thank you.

ogs and congrats on, on, uh, [: 01:00:00

Good luck with the fundraising and keeping the customers happy and doing the, doing the thing.

Ben Jones: Well, thank you guys for having me. Come join me in the secret sideboard anytime you want. All

Kyle Shannon: is where we keep the Skittles.

See you guys. Bye-bye

Kelly Anderson: bye.