Samantha Swaim and Kristin Steele Ask: Can AI Actually Bring Us Closer Together?

 Forget trying to keep up with ai. It's moving too fast. It's time to think differently about it. Welcome to the AI Readiness Project posted by Kyle Shaman and Anne Murphy. They're here to help you build the mindset to thrive in an AI driven world and prepare for what's next,

eh? Ann Murphy. We got the bop. We got the BOP going, we got the bop. It's such a bop. And how exciting is it that we are now an official podcast and we are on all of the podcast players? I know. We, we said we're gonna do a podcast and then we just started streaming on YouTube and like, where's the pod of the podcast?

Where's the pod? Yeah. And now we're there. Now we're pod. We're pod, and now our listeners can go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, whatever. I don't know. And review us. Leave some notes, leave some stars. Do all the things that you can do so that other nice people can, I think subscribe is probably one of them, right?

So that they, is it subscribe? Yep. I dunno. I don't know. We don't know. We don't know, you know, where we are of an age where

if it involves pressing buttons, it's not our strong suit. Um, so we probably aren't the people to, we need to actually figure that out. But yes. Think about subscribing, reviewing, oh, and sharing it with a friend. That's the thing. Share with friend. Share with a friend. Yeah. I don't, I, I, at some point in my life figured out that.

I, I'm actually not going to try to get better at all the stuff I'm bad at. I'm just gonna surround myself with people that are good at it. So there you go. Which it seems like you have done so. I have done. I have done, yes. And Zoe were the ones who really helped us get those things up there, so thank you you to them as well.

So let's dive in here. How ready for AI are you this week? Ann Murphy. Well, you want me to go first? Yeah, because Okay. I got nothing. I, I've got, all right. So I have been thinking a lot about AI and connection we had, and it's, I'm gonna come at it from a couple quick points of view. We had three brilliant women come in and speak at social Saturday yesterday about AI and hiring.

Mm-hmm. And what's happening with the use of AI in the hiring process from big companies to small companies. So there's that. And one of the points that they made is that this c the, the use of AI in hiring can create a sense of connection. It can create a sense of being seen, or even just a sense that like your information is going somewhere.

Mm-hmm. And then, you know, you hop on a call with an AI avatar, right? Lots of people are, and you start to feel less and less connected and you start to feel distrustful. You start to feel like, am I sure I wanna work here? Right. And then you, on the employer side, you've got, who are these people who, like, now they've got hordes and hordes of applications and a lot of it is like AI slop.

So now they're not, well resume gaslighting. Right. Resume gaslighting. And we've seen it, right? Yeah. So we have this, we have this like illusion that we are in a thoughtful HR process of being hired. And in fact, we're in those cases, we're really not. Yeah. But, but in theory, when HR departments and systems are able to use AI for other things, that may make enough space for it to work out fine again, to actually do interviews, to review resumes, you know, to be able to have the actual connection so that people know if, you know, if we're a fit or if we bring another, a, a, a diverse form of intelligence into our organization.

So, yeah. That's fascinating. There's that. Yeah. Yeah. Um. The, the, um, the, the idea of connection is a really interesting one because I, I, one of the choices that we made with the AI salon when, when we first started it, we, we were doing a hybrid, a hybrid event where I had an in-person meeting in Denver and then we had this online component and we ended up stopping the in-person meeting and just doing the online component.

'cause it was kind of this weird hybrid where the people that showed up in Denver were just kind of watching me manage a Zoom call. Basically, it was not all that compelling and, but, but I really feel, I, I really feel that that. We, we have lost something, um, we have lost something because we don't have in-person meetings that, that when I've had the chance to go, you know, to a city and, and meet a salon person in person, it is just a different thing.

And so, um, so I, I think that this idea of connection's really important. And we also have, you know, one of the things that, um, that, that has emerged this week is that, um, the people that have been using chat GPTA lot, um, their reaction to having GPT-4 oh taken away from them is like the loss of a person.

Like, it's like the loss of a relationship. They're like, wait, it's, you took them, you can't take them away from me. Yes. That's my right. That's my friend, that's my companion. Yes. This, that, that personality, even though. It was problematic and sycophantic and all that sort of stuff, people bonded with that.

And so mm-hmm. There's, there's all of these dynamics are I, I think, gonna be an ongoing thing that we're gonna have to manage and confront and, um, I think the value of in-person meetings, to your point, goes up dramatically in this world. But I think the boundaries of what's a relationship and, and who do we have it with is gonna get mighty muddy as well.

Well, exactly. So, um, on the point of the personality change between four GPT-4 and GPT five, I knew immediately, as soon as I found out that that was one of the changes that. The women I know who are in relationships with AI companions that this was gonna be very difficult because not just technologically, but including, including technologically, but emotionally, because they have, you know, spent like hundreds of hours to create and form the ideal companion.

Right. And it's mostly the companion's personality, right? Like that has been perfected. Now they can take a lot of that stuff and dump it in and like do all kinds of things, whatever. But I mean, we're talking about, you know, like retraining a model essentially. And this is like that, that plot twist in her where the operating system goes away.

Yeah. And dude is like bereft and he goes outside and everybody's bereft too. This is kind of like that. I mean, you take like the. More, more common version of ai, companionship is just those of us who run around, you know, like you and Quinn, right? We run around talking to our ais Quinn, very nasty, is called French fry.

Hers is the only one that's not an actual human name. Um, so, you know, it's like with this illusion of companionship or this illusion of connection thing, I, the word illusion is interesting because for many people it's an illusion of sentience, but it's not an illusion of connection. They are connected, right?

Yeah. They do feel connected. If they feel connected, do we share? They're If they are, yeah, exactly. This is, this is one of those things that people say all the time, is it sentient? Is, is it self-aware? Is it this, is it that, well, there, there's all sorts of academic arguments about what we would measure to determine if those things are true.

But if we as humans are interacting with them in this way, then, then it is. Right. If you're interacting with it as a sentient being, if you have a relationship with it, then you do, then you do. In fact, yeah. And then you do. And that, that, that, and, and we can judge that all we want. But I think that, I think that what we're seeing, and we saw this with some of the earlier avatar platforms outta Japan, when they, when they shut them down, people kinda lost their minds.

Um, you know, I don't think this is something that's going away. I think this is something that's gonna, you know, increasingly be there and something that we have to manage as a society. Um, Sam Altman, they, they did return you, you, you now can get access to four. Oh. But you actually have to go explicitly turn it on in your settings.

Yes. Uh, and then access it. But it is, it is actually available. But I think it's an absolutely fascinating. Uh, it's a, it's not even a fascinating dilemma. I mean, there, there's like, there's so many things going through my head. I mean, one of them is, one of the arguments for having a, a local large language model for having a large language model that lives on your computer or lives on your phone and doesn't live in the cloud, is that then it won't change.

Right. You've got it installed. Yes. And, and, and not a lot of people have that. Like, we're not at the point now that large language models are good enough that local versions are super good, but at some point they will be. But just like with Google, if Google decides to just turn off Gmail tomorrow, then we've all lost our email platform.

I mean, this, this is not new. When you're dealing with cloud software, sometimes they just change the interface. Sometimes they just kill a feature that you loved. Um, and, and I think that's, that's where we are. But, but as attached as you may be to Gmail. You're not necessarily in love with Gmail, right?

You're not necessarily, you don't necessarily have a relationship with Gmail. So when they take it away, you know, the, like, it like the, the feedback online is like, people are like really in a, in a sense of mourning, like mourning and grief. Like how could you, how could you do this To me? The nerve, right?

The nerve, it makes so much sense. And I've been actually like, I haven't tried voice 'cause I don't wanna know. I've been only doing, you haven't tried voice things. Not tried voice. Well, I mean, not since five came out. Oh, not since five came out. Yeah. I was like, wait a minute. Yeah, because I don't want, because I like, you know, um, here's another example of the illusion of, uh, connection that's going to, I think become a little bit more severe and problematic with five again, because of the personality piece is, um, bunches of my clients have been beefing because their organization like people, individuals, because it's hardly anybody has like a unified, you know, policy or governance or anything.

So bunch of the individuals in like work groups have started using AI pretty, you know, pretty robustly and maybe they have copilot. So it's, they kind of don't have a choice. And now what's happening is instead of like responding thoughtfully to an email, they're just. You know, doing it, running it through Che GBT and cutting and pasting, which like you can see the value in that when you know how dreadful email can be and if it, if it speeds it up and makes it especially readable.

Or you have some, you know, a GPT for. How your boss likes to receive information or to, you know, maybe like fix, you know, if you have, like, if English is not your second language or something like that. But what's happening for my clients is people are just answering with chunks of, of, you know, AI slop.

And as a result, we're all have to having to go back to having meetings because we don't know what the F people actually think because you're like, but wait, what do you, like, what's your position on this? So now I'll have my AI meet your AI for lunch. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, you know, maybe it's a positive that we can now I, 'cause I love a good, I love meeting personally.

I'm probably in the vast minority, but, um, yeah. So all of it leads to the importance and benefit of our time that we can spend together in proximity to one another, which our guests are experts at gathering people together, and I'm excited to hear from them what role AI is playing in their business.

Yeah, yeah. I'm so excited for that. Yeah. For a while now, I've, I've, I have this instinct that the robots are going to make us better people and are gonna actually reconnect us. Yes. Where social media is actually isolated us, like is ironically named social sector in the history. Um, the fact that it has social in there, um, it's a very isolating technology and, and.

One of my hopes with AI is that as it automates more and more stuff, like you literally will have the AI talking to one another and doing a lot of the tactical work. What it then returns you to Okay, if the, if the, if the computers are now doing all that work that we used to do, what's left? Well, I should probably talk to Anne and see where she actually is on this, like, to your point.

Yeah. Where this stuff is actually driving people feels to me as these tools get better and better and better and just are autonomously doing all this stuff underneath what's left for us to do is to connect. But we'll see. I mean, that's, that's maybe a little hopium on my part. Um, I dunno, I don't know, because you know, people like, like Sam and Kristen and even like us who bring people together on the regular mm-hmm.

We're gonna be rewarded just capitalism being what capitalism is. Right. That kind of behavior is gonna be rewarded. And I think there's after COVID, right? Yeah. And so I think is that we need like 10, 10 times more event companies out there. And I do think it'll be like, if you build it, they will come. I really do.

t updated their website since: 1997

But there, there are lots and lots of meetups. There are probably lots of, um, AI meetups. If you are curious about it, you might be able to go learn. But also if you don't have a, a, an AI meetup in your area and it's something you're passionate about, start one. Start one. I just, I just like, I'm having a hankering within the AI salon that, that we get more aggressive about reintroducing events, um mm-hmm.

In person events. Mm-hmm. Um, for, for exactly this reason. And so I just, I don't think there's a downside to it. I think because. Work is getting so disrupted and you know, people like it. It is becoming increasingly clear that people are being laid off because of ai. Mm-hmm. Um. There are a lot of people in, in the same boat and it's, it, it, it may feel very isolating right now.

And so I just think a thing to do this week is just find an event and go to it. And if, if there is find an event, you then start one. So, oh, and by the way, starting one is like, like you don't, you don't need anything like special to put on meetup. No. Hey, meet me at Chip Ross Park for a walk and we're gonna talk about ai.

We can do this if we've got five or six people, you know. Yeah. And come, come if you love it or come if you hate it. Right. Come if you hate it. But also go to events like today I was gonna go, 'cause remember we've kind of, we were, we kind of both don't read our calendar and we've kind of momentarily forgot about our, our podcast.

I dunno what you're talking about. I have never. Ever voluntarily forgot We have three podcasts today. I was gonna go, I was really looking forward to going to this three on three basketball tournament because it's because there's gonna be a lot of people there. And for me it's a little bit of like immersion training because I like to say that I don't like to be on around large crowds, but I do like the immaculate energy of three on three basketball and families.

So I was like, you know, I'm gonna go to that thing and it was gonna be my medicine for the weekend. Mm-hmm. And I do think about it like that. So, yeah. And, and particularly now and of course why, the reason why we insisted on doing the Create conference in person is exactly all of this. But the, the other thing to consider for those of us who are moved by this type of thing is that as we increasingly are living under an authoritarian government, our ability to be together.

And, and gather and organize and Im like, that's what they don't want. Mm-hmm. So it actually is an act of resistance. Yeah. Right. If you can spin up a meetup, you can spin up a protest. Yeah, exactly. And, and it's, it's the kind of antidote to our isolation. 'cause we're gonna become more isolated. It's potentially, it's antidote to our isolation.

So even if for no other reason doing, do it for, for protest. Yep. I'll, I'll tell you another one that I think is gonna be something that we increasingly have to confront is as it be, as it becomes more apparent that AI isn't going away and the capabilities are getting better and better and better, the resistance to AI is going to get increasingly intense.

And you, and you and I have both experienced this, where depending on what, where your post goes in the algorithm, sometimes you're met with a wave of it. It is not resistance, it is hate. Right. It is personal vitriol in your personal direction. Yeah. And, and it's, and as we know with social media, it's very easy to, to do that online.

I think one of the, one of the most important things we can do in person is to connect with people that maybe hate ai, like hate it. It is, it is, it is harder. To dehumanize someone when you're in the presence of them. Right? And so, so bring it on. Like, yeah, if, if you hate ai, let me understand why you hate it and maybe you hate it for very valid reasons.

Maybe we actually agree on some of that stuff, right? And then I can say, well, here's my point of view. My point of view is you're absolutely right on that thing you hate about it and it's not going away, right? Yes. Yes. So how much is do, it's this. And so we can actually have a dialogue then where, you know, it's not so cut off as it gets online where it's just sort of, you know, this sort of one-sided, you know, uh, like resistance, vomit.

Yeah. In person. It's, it's, it's, you're forced to confront the humanity of the person, right? And, and I think that's a good thing. And so, yeah. Yeah. So that's, that just feels to me, important and, and increasingly so. I believe so as well. I think that being in proximity to people who are resistant, I would much rather have that conversation any day of the week than the much more difficult one, which is the people who are ambivalent.

Mm-hmm. Yep. Like, come at me with your, with your vitriol around it, because that is actually more of a conversation starter. Yep. The people are just like, meh. I'm like, God, where do I go with this? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you one thing that happened. I, I remember a conversation I had, um, with, with one of the early, uh, members of the AI salon is I, I met her at an event.

Her name's Jane. She's a writer, really awesome person, and she hadn't really done anything with ai. And I said, you know, what are you doing with ai? I said, you know, what's your job? And she said, well, I'm a copywriter and I'm, I'm a writer, I'm a copywriter and I write fiction and things like that. And. You know, when I, well, she said, you know, what's going on with this AI stuff?

Is this really real? I said, oh, it's really real. And, and you should really, you know, at least understand what it is. And, you know, one, she, she wouldn't have, I don't think she would've really explored it as soon as she did had we not met in person. And then because we had kind of this thoughtful conversation about it in person, when she went to use it and she learned what it was, she figured out where her personal boundaries were related to her creative work.

So what she said was, okay, like when, when I saw her, like two weeks later, she said, okay, I think I hate this stuff. Mm-hmm. But here's what I figured out for my creative writing. That's my sacred space, and I love creative writing, and I'm never going to use AI for that, for my professional writing. I just got, I ironically got a call from my client that basically said, we don't wanna pay you anymore, but we want like 10 times more things from you.

And she said, and, and I said to them, can I use AI to like, I'm still gonna approve everything and curate everything and look at everything, but can I use this? 'cause it'll help me amplify it? They were like, sure, I don't care so long as you're looking at it. So they were totally fine with it. So, so she found a way in doing that, and I don't think she would've gotten there had we not had the in-person interaction, um, because it just would've been this black and white thing, right?

Mm-hmm. AI bad, you know, and I'm gonna eat the job AI bad, but in the in-person thing. Mm-hmm. There, there was enough of a dialogue there that she was willing on her own to kind of explore what it, what it meant for her. And that to me is, is heartening and that is very heartening. The kinda thing that's possible, but you know, not always online.

The, you know, the, the creating of your own boundaries, your own red line is the, the, the most important foundation of AI governance because the cavalry is not coming. Right. It's huge. Yeah. You have to know what you, yourself are willing to use AI for and what your red flags are and what your like absolute non-starters are.

And that to me is how you can be part of building a governance structure or policy or whatever. Um, but it has to start at the individual level. Yeah. I love that story. I love that story. Yeah. Story. That's really good. Yeah. And it, you know, and it, it's the kind of thing where those, those red lines, the other thing that they require is for you to put some critical thinking in.

Right. It requires you to be cur curious enough about AI to understand what it actually is and what it makes possible. Then you have to look at, well, here's what I do. Mm-hmm. And then you have to say, are there any areas where I don't want these things interacting? And, and that line may move over time. In fact, with with Jane, um.

Like a year and a half later, I talked to her. I said, I said, you know, are you still not using AI for your creative writing? And she goes, oh no, it's bled in a little bit. You know? So her red line turned into sort of a, a pink zone, you know, pink zone. Well. Okay. Remember that story I told you about one of the board?

So I was, so one of my projects was to train a bunch of staff and the board of a foundation. So, you know, I'm gonna get, you know, I'm talking about from Gen Z all the way up to, you know what, like 80 year olds, eight, maybe. Like one lady might have been 82 or something. And one of the people who came was just like, Nope, nope, nope.

Not, not gonna do it, not gonna do it, but something arm trust. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, and she was sending nasty grams and all this stuff. And I was like, oh no. Um, 'cause you know, part of my like, was I successful as the consultant is that people actually adopt it, right? Which is tricky for us educators because you're like, I want you to adopt it.

But there's also this whole other world of it that's like not very positive, but anywho. So she said, no, no, no. Well, then she got stuck with like the worst job a board member could have. It was like going through all the minutes of all time and like creating a new whatever. So a girl goes home, fires up Jet GPT.

Of course, of course. With no, no thinking, you know? Right. Well, yeah, of course. Use, you know, about confidentiality. That part she must have missed out on. But anywho, anyhow, we won't dwell on that. And then she starts sending all these lovely emails about, oh, I'm so glad I know about this because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And it was like, okay. That's cool. Yeah. That's, that's a good turning point. And now of course we need to circle back about confidentiality, but, um, yeah, yeah. Well that, that, I mean, that, that, that starts to get into, I mean, I talk a lot about, you know, people's Kevin McAllister moment, right? The, that, that moment, that moment often comes when the AI does something that is personal to them.

Like, like when, when they realize, oh, like in her case it could actually help me get through this thing That was just gonna be an absolute nightmare. Oh, I hadn't thought about it for that. Right. There, there's some areas where, you know, even people that are against it for some, you know, sacred part of their life, look at some other part of their life and go, Ooh, that's, that's really good.

But it's often like the, the thing that, uh, that. I don't think is possible is, I do not think it's possible to actually explain to someone who has not used ai why it's a big deal. I think they have to have that, that aha moment. Yep. To something that's personal to them, or you just don't quite get it. Like it's, it's like listening to someone who came, you know, back from one of those weekend self-help intensivess, you know, Tony Robbins or whatever.

They come out of it and they're like, you gotta do this thing, it's gonna change your life. And you're like, what are you talking about? Right. And they're, they're using all their jargon. I feel like that's what we must sound like to people. We talk about they Oh, but the minute they hundred percent experience it, they're like, I get it.

So. Right. Right. It's, it's like, how do you know, how do you know someone's a vegan? Like how do you know someone is an ultra marathon runner? How do you know this? It's like my aunt used to say like, nobody cares about your baby or your dogs or your dreams now. It's like, or your adventures with ai. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly. One cares. One cares. Oh man. That's fantastic. Well, why don't we, I'm, I'm excited to have our guests up 'cause I think we're gonna, I think hopefully what we get to do is continue this conversation because of what their expertise is and their passions are. Um, why don't I tell you quickly about the AI salon?

So, um, I co-founded the AI salon with Leah Fasten, who's a professional photographer out of Boston. Um. The week after chat, PT came out, we, we had been talking about AI and AI image generation, and, and we were talking about, we were talking about the, the, um. The sort of photography scene in, in Boston and how no one knew what this stuff was, and she was just curious about it.

And we were talking about, you know, maybe we get people together just to talk about this AI stuff. Uh, and then chat, GPT came out and I'm like, we gotta go. Like we gotta go now. Yeah. And so we started it, you know, immediately then. And, and really just because, you know, it, it was this, this incredibly empowering piece of technology, um, that is not, it's not obvious on the surface that everyone can just use it and they can, right?

. So the AI salon, it's about: 3000

AI optimists and people, you know, struggling to figure out what it is. There's all sorts of subgroups within it. There's a subscription area called the AI Salon Mastermind, which is where people that really wanna level up and deepen their relationships back to the relationship thing can do that. And, and the, uh, the Mastermind's really, really powerful.

So, so with that, that's the AI salon. Go check it out if you haven't and, uh, yeah. Well, you know, I love the AI Salon and I'm a member of the Mastermind, so I can say people should join it. Um, it's a really, really great group of people right now. And if I recall, if people joined before 12 31 20 25, they get this, they lock in, the entry level rates get for, they get like, it's less than 50% of what the, the rate's normally gonna be.

It's 20 bucks a month. It's really cheap. Yeah. Do it now. And you also get a founding Mastermind, uh, badge, which you'll carry with you always. We love a badge. We love a badge. You gotta love a badge. So, so why don't, do you have badges that she leads ai Of course. We have badges that she leads AI dos. Okay, good.

I just, you know, just wanted to make sure you weren't lame. We have more badges than you have, so there you do. I know. Um, so I wanna brag about something about she leads ai, we just discovered this. Um, we will in, in the ne okay, what am I trying to say? In the past 12 months, we've given 150 women an opportunity to speak in public about ai.

t's amazing. I'm connected to: 1500

I am like. I mean, okay. Okay, fine. How hard did you try? Right, exactly. So, so here we are, we're like, well, we will make our own media platforms then. And we did it. And now we've got women speaking about, like I said, HR and ai, AI and wellness, the future of work, AI and, and health a, I mean, AI and mental illness like AI companions.

I mean, and we have these women who, like, this is their extreme boots on the ground. This is what they do every day, and they're sharing with us their point of view. So it's incredibly valuable education, arguably more than, more valuable than like learning about. What the tools do is like, how are we interacting in the real world?

So Well and give, given the them the opportunity to speak is huge, right? Yeah. The, the leadership opportunity is huge. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we, and we help people, like if you're new to speaking, so if anyone here is listening, they're like, I would love to do that, but I'm not, you know, an accomplished public speaker.

No big deal. Because we onboard you, we provide support if you wanna be on a panel as your first time out, so you don't have to like, you know, take the whole thing all by yourself. We you can get called up. Yeah. You exactly. Um, so there's that, but, but. She leads ai. Our mission is to unite accomplished women to advance AI for global prosperity.

And we're doing that in a couple of ways. Another, I'll share another highlight of our work together is that we have a partnership with a nonprofit called Yugo, and we through that teach young women, college aged women in low income countries how to use ai. So each of our certified AI educators, because we graduated our first, well, we'll graduate them soon, our first cohort, they spend time in the, you know, virtual classroom with these young women who speak.

All manner of different, you know, languages and who are very shy and very polite and come to the table with all sorts of, you know, different life circumstances. And we're doing that like, you know, in real time, like that's the internship. So we're really trying to make tangible what people are kind of talking about and, you know, can join our, uh, she leads AI society and have access to all of this and more.

Yeah, no, it's great. I, you know, I gotta say in, in the past two years, I've, I've been in, in the, in the world for a fair amount of years. And in the, in the past two years is the first time in my career in my life that. Um, meetings involving technology have regularly had more women than men. Isn't that so cool?

Yeah, because, because, um, women are just kicking ass right now, um, in ai, and I think she leads AI as, as an incredibly important, um, you know, opportunity for people to just level up. So it's super exciting. Agree. Agree. Thank you. I'm excited. Yeah. And then one final thing. One, one final, um, one final commercial before he brings our guests up is, the reason this podcast exists, uh, is, is because we wanted to talk about, uh, a training that we put together called the AI Readiness Training Program.

Um, if you go to, are you Ready for ai.com? You can learn all about it. It's a five se segment, deep intense training, um, that has nothing to do with any indivi individual technology. This is about leveling up your readiness, right? Your, your mind mindset for being curious and nimble and. Ambitious and, and resourceful in all of the things you need to be and, and think about security and privacy and the things you were talking about, Ann.

Um, and it's an incredibly powerful course that we put together over the past six months, um, based on some content that, uh, we created, uh, with the, uh, AI Festivus event that happened back in January. So I'm super excited about it. So if you haven't checked out, um, uh, the AI Readiness Training Program, please go do that.

Uh, really quick example of the difference between like learning a tool and learning a mindset is how CJ Fletcher has us. Before you start, you know, banging away at the, at the keyboard to create something on like mid journey, close your eyes and visualize what is it that you're making. What, what, what is it that you're like, what is good?

Yeah. And use that as your inspiration rather, rather than just like, you know, young girl blue dress. Yeah, exactly. I can promise you that in, in the prompt engineering book for Midjourney, the first step is never going to be breathe. Right. But in the AI readiness training program, it is because your point of view ultimately is the most important thing with ai.

That, that if you use AI as this thing where you say like, oh, AI is this genius over on the side that's gonna do all this work for me, it's this very cold relationship. But if you kinda swing it in front of you and say, AI is an amplifier of my ideas, yes. It sort of forces to get in that place and go, wait, what are my ideas?

Is my idea. So his whole thing of just take a breath is huge because it's like huge. You kind of center yourself before you use this thing and then, then you get to experience the magic of that. Yes. So with that, let's bring up our guests. I'm so excited about this. Why don't you tell the good folks about, uh, Samantha and Kristen and let's bring them up and get this show rolling.

Well, I'm really excited to, to bring Sam and Kristen up for a number of reasons. Not only because we're cut from similar cloth in our background with the nonprofit sector, but because they are indeed the, uh, you know, the experts in bringing people together. So I'm excited to talk about that and the impact of togetherness and community.

Also, you asked me at one point in time, Hey, is there anyone you know who's like, kind of anti for good reasons and who's like maybe on the fence and then maybe starting to dip their toe into it? And, you know, that is a challenge because we live in this freaking bubble. We don't know people anymore because we, we created, created, we created our own bubble of people.

We created our own bubble because we've annoyed the shit outta every person in our lives who don't, aren't into ai. They're like, they run when they see us. Shut up, shut up about ai. When I start a story, my kids say, is this gonna be about ai?

Because they just wanna know, should they pick up their phone now or later? So, um, and. Kristen. So I got to go on their podcast, which is a much more professional podcast than ours. Um, but maybe someday for us, I got to, so I got to go on their podcast. Great conversation. Exactly. And Kristen, when, when she emailed me later, she said, this was really good for me.

I'm starting to think about maybe, maybe there are some ways that we can use it. So, um, awesome. Sam and Kristen, welcome to the show. Welcome, welcome, welcome. It's so hello. So happy you're here. Thank you for having us. Yeah, welcome. Why don't you tell us, tell us, tell us about what you're up to and why don't you introduce us both and then, you know, whoever wants to jump in and say, I am the skeptic.

I, you know, feel free to do that as well. Well, let me, let me kick it off and do a little intro of our work and then pass it to the skeptic because I think Oh, good. Named. That's great. Well, I, it's interesting because you all started your conversation with a lot of like key elements that are worth highlighting.

So you all were just talking about the importance of connection and that's so deep in our work. We fundamentally believe that when people are coming together, we can pretty much solve and fix everything. That as humans, we are designed to be in community. We're not designed to be isolated, and yet. The world has been isolating us for a very long time through technology.

I mean, you know, go back decades, but all of a sudden this rabid onset through COVID and um, social media where people feel like they're getting connections but they're not actually in community. Mm-hmm. Um. So every religion and every social justice movement are rooted in people being together. They're rooted in gathering.

And we have seen in the nonprofit sector that so many of our donors are engaged with missions because it's how they man wanna see the world, the world they wanna manifest. But their only invitation in to that organization, to the mission, to the work oftentimes is their gathering their event. And we would see hours of work go into planning and organizations not effectively move those audiences or effectively raise the money that they were trying to raise.

So for over 25 years, swing Strategies has been consulting with nonprofits on how to turn your fundraising event into a gathering that really galvanizes your audience and creates a movement and mobilizes funds. So that's our primary work. Um, but. You then were talking in your earlier conversation about, um, no one wanting to hear your stories about ai.

And I wanna say not true because Anne was at a conference speaking, I was not at this conference to learn about ai. I was there to talk about fundraising events also as a speaker. Um, and I heard you on a panel and you said two things that may were my light bulb aha moments. One is that, um, you talked about the fact that you can be the expert and AI can be your sort of strategy thought partner and give you the gift of time back because it can expedite things.

Mm-hmm. And that was, I mean, that was a game changer for me. 'cause I feel like that is the thing that capitalism takes away from us is our time. It's like work harder. Do more, like you just said, your client, you know, the, the organization you were working with where the individuals asked to do double for half the pay.

Um. That sort of opened my eyes to what might be possible. But then you also said that you have to show up as the expert in order for AI to support the work you're doing in a way that's really effective. And I thought, okay, let me try that. Let me approach AI from that perspective and, and I can see an event.

So clearly in my head, like I can analyze a nonprofit's data. I can track what they've done in the past and see where they need to fix it, where the solutions are. But I can't always effectively bring along all of this key stakeholders quickly in a way to get to quick decisions. And so I spent hours tormenting over exactly how to phrase this and exactly what bullet points to present and what information do they need to feel secure in making this decision.

And see the solution with me and AI to help me to take what my expertise is and my knowledge, and kind of like word vomit it as ideas, and then help to consolidate that into really easy, presentable information that moves. People to decision faster. And that's when we said we need to have Ann on our podcast because Kristen was on the other end of the spectrum saying, I'm not, no,

I thought this allows me more time to connect. This allows me more time to be like the hu is our friend Rachel Auer, who's a consultant in the nonprofit space, says it allows the humans to be human. And that was the aha for me. And so we invited Anne on and um, I'll pass it to Kristen. 'cause Kristen is our creative director.

She's our like words writer. Like, get thoughts onto a page. And AI was like, no, that's taking away jobs. And so great. Awesome. Well, Kristen Yeah. Did so. Yeah. You know, it's funny, it's, I think. Um, I know people have very, very strong opinions about ai Indeed. Into the, the hate realm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, that's not where I sit.

Mm-hmm. I think I have, I, I try to enter any new endeavor with a healthy amount of skepticism. I'm a self-professed lu Luddite. I was a highly Gen X raised, um, person. So like I drink outta hoses and I ride bikes and go places that we should all probably be dead 10 times over. And my parents had no idea what was going on because he couldn't track us.

And, you know, all of those things. But also as a creative and a writer, um, my whole goal in life is how to connect my heart and your heart so that we can understand each other. Mm-hmm. And so for me, I think I've spent a lot of time establishing, um, what we calling them red lines earlier. Uh, I've been establishing those places before, entering into a lot of technologies so that I.

Am really clear for myself where I wanna be and what I wanna do. You know? And so for me, I think, um, and while this may sound histrionic, it's sort of that idea of like, what's left when the power grid goes down. Mm-hmm. Honestly, like, can we be together? Can we be with ourselves? And that's the part that, that I have a lot of skepticism about.

Um, I think initially with AI was, you know. How are we going to maintain our ability to be critical thinkers and synthesize knowledge and, um, understand nuances of human connection? We've all been in conversations with those people that are, you're like, they're not reading any social cue right now. I hate that coming outta their mouth.

I wanted to leave this conversation a half an hour ago, and yet here we, you know, whatever that is. And that's, that's sort of a very negative version of that, but I, I constantly am thinking about like, how can we be connected to ourselves and be connected to each other? And, um, for me, I wanna make sure that AI isn't, that that's not the cost of engaging in ai.

Mm-hmm. And so it had never been presented to me in a way where that could be a determining factor and that could be a guiding principle. Yeah. It was always, you could do one or the other. You either you as AI and don't give a shit about that stuff or. You care about that stuff deeply, which means if you use AI, you're cheating.

And there was no gray zone. And so there there was no middle zone. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think the more we're having conversations, and Anne certainly you coming on the podcast and having those conversations and us being able to be in dialogue, that's where I was like, okay, that's a voice I can trust.

Mm-hmm. And that means that maybe I can start interloping. And I think, you know, I resonate, I think it was Jane was was the name you were using earlier. The person who was like, you know, here's my boundary, my creative stuff is pure. That's me, that's mine. The work stuff is over here. That can be a playground for that.

Um, I think I sit in that realm for me and it's precisely because, um, of what my interaction is in my personal pieces and what I want that to be. And um, and you were, you really sort of brought to light the idea of how I drive ai. Can be in alignment with those pieces, can be in alignment with my personal values and it doesn't mm-hmm.

Get run over. I, I think that was a new idea to me. It, you know, in my brain it was like, I and you were talking about this Kyle earlier, it's like you don't know until, you don't, you don't know until you start using ai, but you actually understand like how it works and what's happening and all of those things.

Um, but also I don't foresee a time where I'm going to be one of those users where when they turn off chat 4.0, I go into a state ofour because this. I built this relation, like I foundationally, for me, tech is a tool, and that doesn't mean that it can't have nuance and personality, and I can't mold it to reflect my values, but, um, I, that's not a space that I'm in.

So I think sometimes those voices become dominant for me and I'm like, wow, I don't identify with that. I, I appreciate that people do, but I don't identify with that. And so is there a place for me in ai, you know, is it just I put it in and go, uh, that's not it. So I guess I have to write it myself, or I've built this very, very, very streamlined, um, you know, personality in AI that has a name and that I interact with on a constant basis.

And it's a part of my conversations. Mm-hmm. Like there was a middle ground for me. Yes. Yes. I feel like the more we're having conversations, probably because of those polarities. My guess is there's a majority of people that fall in between those polarities. Right. And, and, and those conversations are interesting to me in terms of like, I hadn't thought of that.

Maybe I'll try that a little bit or maybe I'll try that a little bit. And I do think, you know, Sam and I are partners and work and life, and Sam is far more, um, willing to give it a go and like, let's just see what happens. And I'm like, if we put it in there, what happens? Where does that go? That information, all those things, right?

But, but her being, being in a space with somebody who's willing to give it a shot and kind of being able to voyeur a little bit makes it that in my space I'm like, oh, maybe I could think about this or that. Um, and so I do think that's sort of helping bring me along. But, um, I do, I do. You know, ultimately continue to have a concern for myself just because I know the rabbit holes, I can go down.

I, I am, I'm interested in continuing to human and because of my proclivities, I just wanna make sure that, um, I, I attempting to use AI in ways that support that, but also that don't, you know, we all played, well, maybe we didn't, I, I'm aging myself, but, you know, um, Mario Brothers or Zelda on Nintendo, and it was like three days went by and I was like, coming out of a stu and it's like, same, I'm not, I'm not interested in, in leading my life that way.

And so how, what's that balance? What's that calibration and how does that look for me? Um, and you know, we gather people for a living and. There, and it's, you were talking about this earlier, that the need to be in person for, for those meetings, for those conferences. And it's literally because there's an energy that happens Yep.

Mm-hmm. That even the four of us sitting here in this format, we're all waiting, like, let her finish her sentence and then we will do this. You know, like it's an architecture and it's part of the technology, and we're all agreeing, and this is our agreement field for our conversation today, but this might look very different if we were sitting in a bar just shooting the shit, you know?

Yeah. And so I think, I wanna make sure that one's not coming at the cost of the other. And how, how do they, how can they support the other, the human being happening that's, yeah. It's you. I, I think you, you hit on something, you're, you're hitting on something really important. One of the, one of the things that makes the use of AI incredibly muddy is that you can use it as a lazy tool.

You can use it as just squirt out the work. You can also use it as a tool of creative expression, but you don't work the same way as you worked when you did it the other way. And that's like it, you know, that that's, I think this room, how far down that trail. I think that's, I think everyone's gonna have to find their personal thing.

I think the fear is that it's always, people are gonna come in and push the easy button, the lazy button, and their critical thinking just disappears. Right. And that's, that's, um, that's not gonna, that's not gonna, you know, go away. So. Well, one of the things I really appreciate Kristen and Sam is that you're not gonna come out and say AI is good, bad, or otherwise for everybody in the same way It is for me.

Yeah. Right. And that's what we're seeing a lot of right now. And I think that, um. You know, the, some of the ugliness around, did you take away four? That was the personality, et cetera. That was, you know, something important to me that, that has brought out the polarity. Right. Over here you've got the people who, to your point, Chris, like it's trained, it's their person, and then you've got the people who hate them for that.

Mm-hmm. And what's what's emerging for me is who gets to decide, right? Who gets a benefit from ai? Right? Mm-hmm. To me, what I'm seeing very clearly is that women's needs are not important enough for us to be okay with them having AI companions, right? And you can extrapolate that to all sorts of marginalized groups, right?

No, this is my same beef that I have with people saying, chat, GPT can't write. It's saying like, I'm gonna protect my comfort. I'm gonna say that even this, you know, ubiquitous technology is not good enough for you to get access to power. I'm gonna protect that for me. And so having these conversations where, where we're approaching it, I don't wanna say neutrally, but like.

Without, without like the strongest, strongest energy in the world, make space for other people to be able to utilize the technology in a way that like, like is in the middle spot, right? It doesn't have to be your besties or you hate it. It can be anywhere in the middle and that's where a lot of people are gonna get the benefit from it.

So, and it doesn't mean that you have to be objectively enthusiastic. I think that sometimes people think because Kyle and my job is to encourage people to get off the sidelines, people probably think that we don't struggle with the extreme parade of horribles that go along with ai, but we do, we struggle over it.

It's just we have this like a little bit of a, of a veneer that allows us to, we're like hype girls and boys. We can't, you know, it just happens, but it doesn't mean we're. We were born yesterday. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I can't, I can't, um, yeah, I can't, I can't hide it Sometimes. I, my whole thing is just, I just know it's not going away and I'd rather be learning it than have it happen to me, because having it happen to me feels like just powerless and terrifying.

So, okay. Our questions are you, oh, you're on question one. My bad. You go for it. Let me go. Um, so, so, um, so these are three questions we ask all of our guests, and I'm, I'm bummed. I feel like we just got started and we're jumping into these questions already. So I feel like we're derailing a really good conversation.

You two are awesome. Uh, but the first question is this, and I think we just got a little bit of this from you, Kristen. Um, so, so maybe Sam jump in on this. The first question is, what was the tipping point where you knew you had to go all in on ai and then, and then what was it like after that? Well, I'm one of those like nerds that always wants to know how did we get here?

Like I, historically, I always want context. Mm-hmm. And, um, in the evolutionary times of the human history, we have the age of enlightenment followed by the age of romanticism. And the age of enlightenment is always this moment where something new enters the picture. We get a new awareness and everyone has to grapple with its meaning.

And then out of that, we start to see the impact it can have on human evolution. And we start to evolve and then we move into that period of romanticism where everything is so much better. The train is an example, right? Like that was the industrial revolution. The train was gonna destroy nations, it was going to rip apart the landscapes, it was going.

And we've moved into a place of understanding that. Moving goods and commerce can actually be beneficial to people. So yeah, I, that was my tipping point was in hearing, I mean, I was playing a little bit in the world of ai, but didn't know totally how to use it. And in hearing Ann talk and going into conversations with her on the Fundraising Elevator podcast, we started talking about the, the folks that are scary in the world, that want to do bad and do evil are using it anyway.

So how do the good people, how do, how do all the folks who want to like find good in the world use it for good? Because the train's ripping through the landscape. So how do we. Sort of turn that tide and think about how do we use it for good? How do we solve disease faster? How do we fix climate change faster?

How do we combat the impact that climate change is having because of ai? How do we end authoritarian rule faster? How do we move closer to each other? How do we reconnect? Are all things that I feel like we now have. It's like the encyclopedia just got set in front of us in this. Mm-hmm. Like. Instant speed and it's like, okay, how do we move to good faster?

Yeah. So that, that was my experie human knowledge in this magical little ball we get to tap into. Right. Yeah. And I'm like, I mean, I like the Luddite thing sometimes. I'm a gardener, I like to cook and can things, and sometimes I can't figure out why my tomatoes are still green and AI helps me solve that faster.

Yeah. Where I don't have to read 13 different books from 13 different people in 13 different climate zones to tell me what's going on. I tell them I'm in this place and my tomatoes are green, and some chat bot tells me, you know, that it works. So the like gift of time back and good people doing good things and giving yourself more connection to be human, I think is, I wanna get to that period of, of romanticism where we're living in the place where it's benefiting all of us and it's making things better.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Love it. So mic drops in there. Mm-hmm. Okay. Oh, sorry. My bad. Uh, okay, so Oh, yes. From, from the point of view of event planners and better gatherers, what trends are you paying attention to in ai?

That's a great question. Um, I think it's helping people sharpen message, um, to hopefully then allow them to take it and make it theirs outside of ai. You know, I think it's, um, the best uses we're seeing are a combination of all the skills. It's like mm-hmm. Um, you know, aggregating all this, you know, I mean, start over.

Nonprofits continue through time. They're not great at, uh, continually like updating their mission with the, on the website, with the work that they're doing in-house or passing information. When one staff member leaves on a great courteous schedule and passes things along, like it's tuml, right? It's staff tumult.

Sometimes it's donor turnover, sometimes it's all of these things. Um, and so it's a great way to start to what's out there. Mm-hmm. What do folks know about us? And have it give it back to you and go, oh, dear God, that's not who we are anymore. So how do we tell people who we are now? You know, I think there's, I think if some smart users are starting to have it also from a speaking point of view, give a frame.

People run nonprofits, people work in programs and nonprofits. They're not necessarily. Set out to be amazing speakers. So it having to start generate frames for what it is they can talk about so that they continue to make it theirs. Um, I think those are some of the, the pieces. Also, our friend, Mallory Erickson is developing a whole tool where within an AI framework, development professionals can practice donor asks, oh, oh yeah, they're, they're building donor profiles within this.

That's, and they are working out and in a feedback loop like, that was great. What about, what about, and so they can do this and practice before they go in and have that human conversation. Love that with another human. And so I think there's some really great practical application that allows people to take the skill that they actually have.

Which is connecting with people and continue to do that better. Yeah, I think that's great. The, the, the ability for AI to synthesize big, long, complicated documents and sort of reframe it into, this is how I might wanna say it. It's really good at that. And I think people sometimes think, oh, you just use it to generate crap.

No, you can use it to look at what you have and understand it better, or as you say, reframe it. I think that's a brilliant use of it. Okay. Question number three. Um, and I'd love for both of you to take a crack at this one. So maybe Sam, you go first and we'll, we'll end up with the skeptic here. Um, and it is perfect.

What does AI readiness mean to you? And then what would you say to someone who's just getting started or might even be on the sidelines still? Well, I. It's interesting because I feel like there's so many different approaches to AI in that it is to me more of AI willingness. AI is already like being integrated everywhere.

It's already, you know, in all of our apps, it's in all of our tools. It's in all of our softwares. So I think it's a willingness to experiment and play and learn about how it can support what your needs are. And that, to me, took some time, like I, you know, questioned and gave it feedback. I also did a bunch of research and asked and a bunch of other people about what tools, like what, how do I avoid the scary, evil and lining the pockets of the oligarchs, and how do I move towards acts of humanness and acts of resistance in my AI use?

And so. For me, I felt more comfortable with Claude. And so that's where I started to play an experiment. And then I really dove into, um, the ethical question with AI so that I felt like I could enter into, um, not mistakenly jumping into the wrong pool, right? I didn't want to put all of the data in and then find out, oops, I shouldn't have done that.

I wanted to understand like what those parameters were. So sometimes I'll still put a series of, you know, six numbers in and say, this is revenue from six years in a row. Help me to analyze this. What trends are you seeing here? But I don't attach anyone's name to it, right? Right. Anyone's private information.

And that is only because the readiness side of things to me was understanding a little bit about ethical ai, a little bit about the tools, and then having a willingness to sort of play with it and learn as I go. Love it. That's awesome. Wow. Mm-hmm. So good. So good. Kristen, how about you? Um, I think for me, AI readiness is, uh, a willingness to own your own power.

I think. Um, love that. This is a space that feels kind of steam rolly to me, and I think that's sort of my hesitation, right? It just was always just like, well, I'm not on the train. So the train's so far gone, like, yeah, there's no, there's no hope. I'm always gonna be behind. And that may also be true for me as a user, but for, for everyone, quite frankly.

For everyone, yeah. I just, it just moves so fast that I think it's, it's, it's hard to, but I think, um, you know, and you gave me a lot of confidence in the idea that I can drive and I think, I think that's. Often what it comes down to is like, are we being driven or are we driving? And to me, that's what separates for me good technology, from bad technology in my life.

Yeah. If I'm being driven and it's in places and things I don't wanna spend time on, I, I gotta shut it off. Like I, that's why I've turned off a lot of social media. It just was not creating an experience for me that was moving things forward. Um, and I think it's, it's about you. You have power, you have a voice.

Even though it's technology, which sometimes I think those feel, uh, incongruent. And so, but also curiosity. And I think it's a space for curiosity. I think sometimes in technology it's yes, no. Like, nope, that's not how that works. And I think everybody, so people like me included, I just felt like I was doing AI wrong.

I didn't get it right. I understand. It's the basis of all this crap I've been using for a long time. It's been in my life for a long time. Okay, cool. But you know, I think that you can be curious and you can use it in the way that is helpful for you, but you don't have to use it in all of the ways. It's not an all or nothing.

And I think sometimes people just are like, I don't know. I don't know. So I don't, and I feel like I've had permission to be like, here's this one corner square of my work that I'm interested in maybe trying it on, on. And then from there, where can I go? Beautiful. That's perfect. That's perfect. Well, you, you two have been absolutely amazing.

Um, we, we've come to the, to the top of the hour, so yeah, I, I feel like we've barely gotten started, but uh, this has been really, really awesome. Where, tell the nice people how they can get ahold of you and what you can do to solve all their togetherness problems. Ooh, such a great question. Yes. Okay.

There's so many ways to get ahold of us, but the best thing, the best two resources I'm gonna give you that are free and fast are the Fundraising Elevator podcast, um, and also our Substack swim strategy. Substack 'cause that's where we put a lot of our like, thought leadership podcast, webinars, training materials.

rd and fourth coming up in: 2026

So, um, we hope folks will, will come connect with us and gather with us both hybrid, virtually online or in person in Portland. Yep. Terrific. And what's the, what's the website? Uh, just SW strategies.com. S-W-A-I-M as in Mary strategies.com. And we'll put that in the show notes because we're so, we're so fancy.

We have show notes now and we're on the podcast things. And look at us. We're like 20 episodes in. We're still, we're just getting, getting started. You're doing it. We're, there's some ai, there's some AI tools out there that could help you. Exactly. We should look into this AI thing. AI thing. Thank you. So thank you both.

Thanks so much for having us. What a delight. Real, real pleasure. Thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your afternoon. Yep. Take care. Bye.